On August 31st, 1992, 20-year old student president Grant Robertson gave Critic Te Ārohi what was quite possibly his first ever interview. 31 years later, Grant returns to the Clocktower, this time as Vice Chancellor of the University of Otago. Critic sat down with Grant once again to discuss living on Castle Street, trailblazing student protests against neoliberalism, Palestine, queerness, free speech, and Sex and the City.
Note: This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Critic:
Let's start with your beginnings in Dunedin. When did you move to South Dunedin?
Grant:
We came down here when I was six [...] I went to St Clair Primary School and [...] Macandrew Intermediate, which is now Bathgate Park School, and then to King’s High School.
Critic:
Do you come from a middle-class background?
Grant:
Relatively. We certainly weren't in a position where we were really worried about money, but we also didn't live a flashy life. We had two second hand cars, but we were comfortable. Then that got turned upside down when I was in my second-year here at Otago. My father actually was arrested and went to prison. He was an accountant and, unbeknownst to all of us, he'd been stealing money from the law firm he worked for. I guess apart from all the upset that it caused in our family, [it] also put me in a position of not having any backstop or [financial] support at all. My mum wasn't working at that stage. That was a really difficult time financially and I certainly felt [it's impact] for a few years after that.
Critic:
Did you grow up in a politically conscious household?
Grant:
I think the answer to that question is yes, but not a party political one [...] My mum and dad, especially my mum, talked about political issues a lot. We were one of those households where as kids we were [...] part of those conversations. My grandfather on my mum's side [...] never got into Parliament, but he'd been a Labour candidate. Mum had kind of inherited quite a few of his thoughts and feelings. It was definitely a household where we talked about those issues.
Critic:
When did you first become interested in politics?
Grant:
I can remember the 1984 election. I was twelve, which is a bit geeky [...] that was the election where David Lange's Labour government [won]. It was a big change [...] then through my high school years, different issues came up. New Zealand being nuclear free was a big issue for my generation. At the end of my high school years [...] fees got introduced to the universities. That kind of politicisation for me carried through. By the time I finished at high school, I was probably a bit of a boring politics nerd.
Critic:
Did you know you wanted to be a politician by the time you were a student at Otago?
Grant:
No, I don't think I even knew what that meant. I knew who politicians were, but I had no idea how you became one. My arrival here coincided with tuition fees being introduced. I was politically active and then became what was called then a 'student politician' [...] Then I moved to Wellington and did the New Zealand Union of Students' Associations job [...] I was like, 'Okay, this is what it is.' The idea that maybe I could do it probably emerged about then.
Critic:
Did you work any jobs while you were a student here?
Grant:
I certainly did [...] I worked at what's now Pak N' Save South Dunedin, but then it was a New World. I was the fruit and veggie boy [laughs]. Awesome job. I did that all the way through ‘til my last year at university. I think I ended up being the Saturday manager of the food and veggie department, which was a big honour. Then in my last year here, I actually worked as an assistant in the library.
Critic:
Where did you flat?
Grant:
Okay! I stayed at home in my first year, and then in second-year I flatted in Castle Street —
Critic:
— Oh, what flat?
Grant:
620 C. It's down a driveway and it's a two story [building]. We were upstairs. Not the highest quality accommodation we could get, but a pretty entertaining year all round. Then [in third-year] I flattered in Melbourne Street behind the Woodhaugh Garden. It's an old pub [...] we were on the ground floor, which was fun, but very cold. [In fourth-year] we were on Queen Street [...] and then like a lot of students, I eventually moved a little bit further away. My last flat was on High Street.
Critic:
How would you describe the culture of Castle Street back then?
Grant:
It was definitely a place where people were having a good time. One of the differences was at one end of the street was the Gardens Tavern (Gardies), the other end of the street was the Union, the Cook and the Bowler [...] we were going places like student bars as opposed to some of what I see nowadays. But you know, I have to confess… for me, it was [about] being close to Uni. It was the best bit about [living on Castle Street]. I could get up quite late and still make it to my lectures.
Critic:
So you weren't as into the party scene as one might assume?
Grant:
Um no, yeah, I dunno [laughs] I better be careful here, but yeah. I mean, look, you know, we enjoyed ourselves. We had a really good time there.
Critic:
What was it like being a queer student at Otago in the '90s? Were you openly gay?
Grant:
I was out to my close friends, but it was a different environment. One of the things I did [...] was I helped establish UniQ, which still [exists] as the network of queer student groups around the country. Partly we did that because there wasn't a lot [of support]. There was a really good group here [at Otago], but it was small. I knew lots of people in it, but I was still in the process of working out exactly who I was.
[...] It was less of an environment in which [being gay] was something that everyone was comfortable with and talked about [...] That's one of the really good evolutions, over the years. It's still tough for a lot of queer students, but you can see the 30 year difference here.
Critic:
You’re quoted in the Critic archive saying that establishing UniQ was one of your proudest achievements during your time as president. Is that still true?
Grant:
Definitely. That actually came about from [my work at] NZUSA (New Zealand Union of Students' Associations) rather than OUSA. But absolutely [...] 30 odd years later it's still there. You can see it mattered then, and it's lasted. I mean, there's lots of other highlights when I think about OUSA. The Student Health buildings that now exist over there came about from some work we did [...] we got the first hardship fund introduced. There were lots of those kinds of wins along the way. I can look out here and see the safety phones. That was us. There's a whole lot of [different] things which I'm proud of as well.
Critic:
Tell me about your experience first running for OUSA President.
Grant:
I actually ran for [the 1992] OUSA exec [...] and I missed out. Then before the year started [...] one of the people who had been elected didn't come back to university. So they ran a by-election, and I was like, 'Ah...' but someone said [to me], 'I'll put your name.' I didn't do any campaigning. I won [laughs] [...] at some point in the year, I must have decided that running for president was a good idea.
I made these terrible posters of myself. You'll be able to find one somewhere, it was really lame. 'Cause this is before Photoshop. We literally like cutting stuff out and pasting [...] me in all these famous situations. So I was there with the Kennedys and I was with Martin Luther King [...] that poster campaign was a big part of me winning, I suspect [...]
Critic:
I did want to touch on your relationship to Critic as president. Our current President Keegan, she's a friend of the office and is always popping around – probably partly because she used to write for us. But what was your relationship to Critic like?
Grant:
It was really good. The then-Editor Colin Williscroft and I [...] became good friends. In those days the president had to see Critic before it went out [...] back then I had to effectively sign off that [the issue] was legally okay. I would be [in the office] on publication night, which maybe was a Wednesday [...] there was a lot of fried chicken and beer and things [...] Critic was awesome then. It is awesome now, of course.
[...] My big memory of Critic from that year was the big protest at the end of 1993, where the police were involved. [Critic] produced a special edition overnight, which in those days was really, really challenging to do [...] they worked all night and we had the special edition the next day, which was just amazing.
Critic:
You led that protest in 1993 against the Uni's proposed 15% increase of fees that saw students arrested by riot police. Could you please describe the circumstances leading up to the protest and what you wanted to achieve?
Grant:
In 1993, the government of the day, its budget was pretty harsh on tertiary education [...] in the early '90s it had gone from the government settling on one standard fee [...] to them devolving that decision to individual universities, which is the position we have nowadays. At the same time, the government was cutting funding, so not just [failing to] increase funding, but actually cutting it as well.
The University, in its wisdom, decided that it needed to kind of balance all that out. As you say, [by] 15% – actually, the next year it was 18%, so it was even bigger. I was still on the University Council, so we'd had quite a lot of activism around that through the year [...] students really felt like they hadn't been listened to by the University, and so the protest was to make that clear.
Myself and the other student rep [...] walked over here with everybody, went into the meeting. The students stayed around outside, and we lost the vote on the fees, obviously [...] the meeting finished, I went outside and [...] some students tried to get into the building and had been arrested [...] The real view of students was that they were unhappy, but the meeting had finished. What they [actually] wanted was the arrested students to be let out. I came back into the building and there were some conversations about what happened next between myself and the Proctor. But unfortunately, the police were there.
There had been a bit of history between students and the police. [The relationship was] not great over the early ‘90s [...] the students who were sitting out the front of the registry building had to be moved. And unfortunately, that's what [the police] did with their batons and riot shields. It was really awful. The next night I was on nationwide TV on the equivalent of Seven Sharp, talking about what had happened.
Eventually they followed some arrests and the police came and they arrested me, but they never charged me [laughs] [...] Ultimately it was a peaceful protest. And I think nowadays the police wouldn't act the way they did then. They just wouldn't do it. And that's a long story, isn't it?
Critic:
It's a good one. Would you say that your opinion on tertiary education fees has changed since you first protested them as a student?
Grant:
In principle, my view remains that we [...] need to make tertiary education as affordable as we possibly can and remove barriers to it. I haven't changed my view on that. Probably the big difference now is that the loan scheme that's in place now is interest free. It wasn't then [...]
I also over time have understood that, from a government perspective, you are balancing a whole lot of different things. You need to fund housing and early childhood education and health, and tertiary education is [just] one of those things [...] When I was [Minister of Finance], it was a real balancing act [...] I'm more aware now of some of the other pressures and I do think we've got a better loan scheme than we had.
Critic:
You've been called the trailblazer of the Otago Uni student resistance against neoliberal policies. What do you think that your reaction would've been as a student to the news last year of the University's $60 million budget deficit and staff cuts?
Grant:
I don't know, really [...] I remember that I certainly appreciated the staff who I worked with when I was a student here, so I'm sure I would've been concerned and worried for them. I was on the University Council for two years, and so I did kind of have some awareness of the way the budget was put together [...] It's been really tough on staff. It's been really hard on students.
Equally, the Council has a legal obligation to get the finances back in shape. So, it's about how we do that [...] I'm super optimistic about the future of the University. I think we are going to see enrollments come back. I think we are going to see the University get back on the front foot, but we've had a difficult period. I really hope 30 years ago, Grant would've been sympathetic to the staff involved, but also looking for a constructive solution.
Critic:
You're a very well known public figure within New Zealand, first becoming known in the 2000s. Since then, the nature of being a public figure has changed a lot, with the internet, the media going online, and smartphones. How has that shift affected you from when you first began your political career?
Grant:
It's just so different [...] When I became an MP, Twitter had just started. Very few people had smartphones and obviously that evolved quite quickly. It's harder being a public figure [...] I think the level of hatred and misogyny [against female politicians] is horrific. I also experienced some, partly as a result of being gay, but also just [...] being a public figure. You learn to develop a thick skin [...]
You also [mention] the changing media landscape. The volume of media work as a politician just kept going up and up and up. Every podcast, every news outlet [...] It's hard in the media sector [...] but the expectations on our availability and responsiveness just kept increasing. The amount of time you have to get back to somebody for a story just disappeared overnight.
[...] So it's a really different life. It's much more exposed, it's much more public. You know, I'd never ever want to put someone off from going into politics 'cause I think it's a really important thing for people to do. But it does come with a bit of a health warning.
Critic:
As for your appointment as Vice Chancellor, what was the thought process behind retiring politics and taking up this position?
Grant:
After the 2023 election, 15 years as an MP, I'd done nine years in opposition. I didn't fancy that anymore [laughs], but also [...] it was kind of a natural breakpoint for me. I'm 52, [I was] keen to do some other things. I didn't know what those other things were. Then someone put this idea in front of me. I'm [not an] academic [...] but I really do love the University of Otago and Dunedin [...] So I kind of put my application in, not really thinking I'd get very far with it actually. It's been a great journey to get here.
Critic:
As you said, you're not an academic. There's an increasing trend for universities to appoint non-academic leaders. Why do you think that is and what do you think the advantages and disadvantages are?
Grant:
I think each university will have its own reasons for why they choose to go down that path. I think increasingly universities are big complex organisations that while at their core are about teaching, learning, and research, they are [also] big, big organisations. Over time, perhaps universities have started thinking, 'We might need people with a big range of skills,' which may or may not come from someone who's an academic.
In terms of the advantages and disadvantages, I think a fresh set of eyes for Otago is a good thing. It's been a challenging time. I come as somebody who loves the place and wants it to succeed and [I have] different perspectives [...] coming from the background I have, I know how government works, I know how decisions get made. I've clearly been involved in financial issues [laughs], there's a lot of positives there.
Obviously disadvantages are [that] I'm not an academic, and the core business of this institution is the academic side. But I am academic adjacent. I've got brothers who are academics. I've been close to a lot of people who work here and I really believe in what they do. I'm certainly gonna be working closely with the academic staff, with my own senior leadership team here who are academics. I think there's a lot of people around me to support me in spaces where perhaps I'm not the traditional candidate.
Critic:
What are the types of decisions or behaviours that you think you'll have to change from being a politician to Vice Chancellor?
Grant:
That's a really good question. I think the pace of decision making in government's a bit quicker than it is in universities. That's just the nature of a weekly cabinet meeting and everything happening in Parliament and so on. It's a bit different here [...] I think [I need to maintain] respect for the traditions and the history, whilst also looking for ways of making our decision making process inclusive and effective and efficient [...] there's always ways we can improve it.
Critic:
Onto university issues that we're currently facing. First the budget deficit: do you have a plan going forward?
Grant:
I've actually inherited a plan. Lots has been done. There are a few more challenges to go. As I said earlier, the University has to, both legally, and to do the right thing, get its finances sorted [...] so the plan is there. We will get there.
Critic:
During your time as OUSA President in the '90s, you attributed the privileged backgrounds of most students for the reason for lack of engagement with student issues, stating: “Ones that do have enough money and don’t give a shit about anyone else. It’s more than apathy — it’s straight out individualism. They only really care about themselves. Increasingly, people are set up to think about themselves, and so they do [...] Those who can afford to be here are here, and trying to prick their social consciences is sometimes very difficult.” Last year Critic reported that 60% of first-year students come from decile 8 to 10 schools and Otago undergraduates are 24 times more likely to come from schools in the top 10% wealthiest areas than the poorest. Do you still view this as problematic?
Grant:
I was having a bad day that day wasn't I [laughs]. I certainly want to make sure that [...] the educational opportunity is available to all New Zealanders. Otago in Pae Tata – the strategic documents – has got some really important goals around equity and enrollment, particularly amongst Māori and Pasifika students and students with disabilities. I'm keen to push on with that. I want this to be a place where we see a diversity of students and staff [...] There were some great people who come out of high decile schools who are well motivated, as well. Clearly I was feeling something quite specific at that point.
Critic:
The Tertiary Education Commission looks to be giving the green light to increase fees by up to 6% next year. That might come at a cost against students who can least afford it, from families that can't make up the difference. Does that worry you at all?
Grant:
We haven't made a decision about that as a university yet [...] we have to think about what we do. We've gotta balance [...] exactly what you're saying, that increasing fees can really impact people, with the fact that we have to make sure the institution is addressing [our] financial issues. There are a number of different ways we can support students – as well as that [fees] decision is what we do with scholarships and how we make sure those students from backgrounds that might not otherwise get here, get here.
Critic:
There has been pressure on universities to make public stances on the ongoing conflict between Palestine and Israel in the Middle East. Massey University recently issued a statement after months of student protest condemning the act of genocide generally, not in relation to Palestine. An open letter was signed by staff, students and alumni calling on Otago Uni to condemn Israel’s “genocidal” acts against Palestinians, and cut all economic ties to Israel. Do you have any response to this open letter, or do you plan on issuing a statement in the future?
Grant:
I'll have to check where the letter is at, because it's not one that I've actually seen to be honest with you. In general, I think for universities our first and foremost obligation is to look after the students and the staff who are here and make sure that we provide a strong and supportive environment. Individual staff will have potentially quite different views about elements of any issue that might be going on politically. So, as a university we've gotta kind of think about that and manage that first and foremost.
In terms of the specific question, the big issue internationally particularly has been universities with investments [...] supporting Israel. That isn't something that the University of Otago has. That's not an issue for us. But when we think about political issues, we've gotta bear in mind the balance of the staff and students who are here and how they feel on any given day. I can have my own personal views about [Israel-Palestine], but as Vice Chancellor, I've gotta make sure I uphold that [principle] for the University. I'll have to take a look at the letter.
Critic:
So you don't think that the university should have political stances?
Grant:
It depends on what the issue is and how relevant it is to the operation of the university. Individuals within the university will always have political views. Student groups will always have political views, and from time to time the University will take stances. I guess all I'm saying is we've gotta be respectful of the different views that are already contained within our community here.
Critic:
You approved the release of the University's statement on free speech, which is being praised by free speech advocates as the gold standard of these policies. Why was it important to the University to release the statement of free speech and what might it look like in practice?
Grant:
[...] [Free speech is] the lifeblood of a university. It is what [university] is about, the expression of ideas and the debate about those. It's why we all come here, to be a part of that. So it is really important to me – this process obviously predated me – but for the University to have something that [...] people, the whole university community could go to and say, 'That's the University's view together about what [free speech] is.’ Within the statement it also talks about the importance of [...] manaakitaka. We balance our rights of free speech with our responsibilities in that regard.
Critic:
Artificial Intelligence (AI) poses a huge change to academia. There's obviously threats, but there also will be opportunities. What are the main ones that Otago University must grapple with?
Grant:
The first thing is AI is here [laughs]. We've gotta grapple with the fact that it's relevant in every aspect of what the university does [...] There are massive opportunities for things being more efficient [...] effective and clear way. I think students coming into the university increasingly will be great users at generative AI. We need policies that are clear about how that works with your academic studies [...]
There's opportunity there, but there's also challenges ethically. How do we make sure AI is a force for good? How do we make sure that it's not used to reinforce racism or other discrimination? We need really strong and robust policies to make sure we utilise it, but that we also protect and support our university community. We're not alone. The whole world's dealing with it and there's a lot we can learn from that.
Critic:
Last year, Otago Uni made national headlines for flat initiations – most notably over the abuse of a live eel and alleged biting of a duck legs, the latter of which both Critic and the Proctor are pretty certain never happened. Regardless, initiation season is coming up again. How do you plan on tackling this issue within our student community?
Grant:
Yeah, look. The most important thing for me is that we work with students around how they can make sure that living in flats, they live well and they live healthily and they have fun. For me, the initiations that you've described don't fit into any of that. I have zero tolerance for the kinds of things that I heard about [...] people can expect that there will be consequences when that happens.
Critic:
Do you think the University should be able to regulate student's behaviour off campus in the manner they currently do?
Grant:
It's a really challenging area and there are legal cases about this. OUSA and the University had one of those [about this issue] a few years ago. What I do think is where we compromise the safety and the health of other students, then there are issues for the University.
Critic:
Okay, quick fire round. Law or med?
Grant:
Law.
Critic:
Cats or dogs?
Grant:
Dogs.
Critic:
Pepsi or Coke?
Grant:
Coke.
Critic:
Are you a morning or night person?
Grant:
Used to night, now morning.
Critic:
Fiction or nonfiction?
Grant:
Oh… Is it what I want or what I do? [Laughs]. Non-fiction.
Critic:
Do you have a tattoo?
Grant:
No.
Critic:
Would you ever go on Dancing with the Stars alá David Seymour?
Grant:
Absolutely not.
Liane (University Comms):
Grant!
Critic:
What's your go-to cocktail?
Grant:
I'm pausing 'cause it's an important question. What was the one they used to drink on Sex In The City? [pauses] no, they don't do that... I'll say Negroni but I don't think [Carrie Bradshaw] had a lot of them.
Critic:
What's your guilty pleasure?
Grant:
Coffee.
Critic:
Unpopular opinion?
Grant:
Parliament should have a four-year term.
Critic:
Who's your celebrity crush?
Grant:
Such a good question. Who's my celebrity crush? Tom Holland.
Critic:
And what New Zealand rugby team do you support?
Grant:
Uh, the Highlanders!